4: Science Productivity, Elite Overproduction, and Competition

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Hosted by
Will Jarvis

This week on the podcast, I am joined by my two siblings, Faith and Glenn Jarvis. We talk about some of the problems we see in modern science, our experience with elite overproduction, and how we experience competition. Faith is a biochemist, and Glenn is a Mechanical Engineering major at North Carolina State University.


hi i’m will jarvis and i’m will’s dad we both love and are fascinated by stories stories about people stories about places and stories about events our stories give shape and form to life they give texture color and rhythm to the blank canvas that every new day presents to us and they do that by informing us of our past as a directional marker for our future okay will it’s narrative time tell me a story welcome to the narratives podcast today we’re on the campus of north carolina state university we’re at the the brand new centennial campus semi illegally semi oh shh not supposed to say no completely legally it’s completely all legit we’re sitting 12 feet apart we’re 35 feet apart as we speak panels oh my god um much like the democratic national convention we are zooming in today we’re zooming in together um so today i’ve got my two siblings here i’ve got on my left i’ve got glenn hey guys and glenn is a student he’s a mechanical engineering major mechanical engineering major here at north carolina state university oh yeah you’re entering your fourth fourth and hopefully final year hopefully four out of six or like hell that’s awesome and then on my right i have faith jarvis my sister that’s me and uh she is a what’s what’s your your scientist at thermo fisher i do analytical development for clinical trials so what does that mean it means that somebody has to make the initial batches for research studies and clinical trials and someone has to make the quality controls and look at every single vial that comes off the lines to make sure there’s not hair in it so that’s what i do it’s pretty intensive and very important you don’t want your hair in your your clinical trials it kind of throws things off a little human dna that’s awesome so uh today we’re actually on the centennial campus it’s the bougie campus it’s uh it’s quiet quite beautiful we’re actually in kind of an abandoned classroom right now it’s kind of scary to look at um it’s 96 degrees in here but we’re doing fine we’re doing fine we’re doing fine we actually got run off from the library yeah we were outside trying to record and yeah crazy times crazy no you can’t eat them donuts no eating donuts outside of the library it’s very which is very interesting and we do eat down nuts here since they do sell donuts in the library so a little bit of an anti-trust case there yeah it’s definitely it was a there’s a monopoly issue paging uh all the congressional democrats we have a big problem here university you know big donut is really keeping us down man um oh man very cool so today we wanted to come together because we’re all working on a startup idea together which i think is really cool um and we want to talk about that and we’ll get into that a little bit later but first off i just wanted to introduce both of you um kind of talk about kind of how we all intersect together kind of our common interests and a lot of things we like to think about kind of on a daily basis and read about it because i think you guys have a really unique perspective on life the universe and everything is douglas adams so kindly likes to say so um so glenn you’re currently a fourth year mechanical engineer yep here at state um so what about mechanical was was interesting to you um when i was looking through the majors i was like oh totally i knew i wanted to do engineering i was a big lego kid as a kid and um i i didn’t find anything with medicine interesting and i didn’t find anything with a softer science or humanities interesting and so i decided you know what i’ll just i’ll go really basic and i’ll just say anything mechanical i’ll do this mechanical engineer and i actually came in as a neuroscience major and i was like all right well this sounds i don’t like this whole life science thing so i went for mechanical engineering and i got into some you know higher level calculus and i realized like oh this isn’t as intense and crazy and nerdy as people are saying i really think that almost anybody can understand like early calculus and you don’t have to be that smart to understand like even like calc 2 calc 3 type stuff well it’s already all been derived for you so exactly exactly and i i really think you know in primary schooling they they give math a bad name they give design a bad name and everybody’s like i never want to do math when i grow up i’m because i was horrible and it was cool but i i don’t know i found that that was not the correct case when i got into engineering and i think it’s really fun i love modeling i love data manipulation with a little bit of coding and stuff like that and and you’re talking about calculus i think it’s this this will relate to kind of some things we talked about a little bit later in the podcast but um you know do you remember do you know when calculus was invented uh after the creation of oxford university that’s all i know yeah kidding the area under the curve 17th century 17th century can you believe that so that’s pretty crazy we’re like 400 years on from you know isaac newton and so humans have lived a long time without understanding calculus is one thing we did did not know how to get there under a curve for a while and we did just fine and we did it for all the murderer and the rape and it was great oh god yeah so a lot of ads so i i just think that is super interesting because now we teach that to high school kids yeah i mean you can derive a lot of classical mechanics without calculus is what i found but now we we teach it with calculus which is i mean would you just use basic algebra if you didn’t have calculus or is that sort of you can use basic algebra and then there’s also um there’s methods of like you can do it analytically like you can say you know we’re going to plot it out on a curve and then oh this kind of fits and then you can test to test test it and say okay well yeah it’s pretty much f does equal m a and you don’t have to say oh if acceleration is the derivative velocity which is the derivative of you know position with respect to time i mean you can just say acceleration is how velocity changes with time you know you don’t actually have to understand what a derivative is you can just say how it changes with and you don’t know how you need to know the mathematical operators to actually describe motion with and so i don’t and now we teach it with the with the mathematical operators right but the d over dt and stuff like that do you find that a better or worse way to teach people is it more or less intuitive than just saying this is just the change over time um or do you just need that foundation to really move up in the physics world i think it’s a better way to understand it if you know how the calculus works but it’s not a better way to understand it if you’re just trying to learn the physics and you’re not really understanding how the calculus works because anybody can learn something like the power rule and just know okay that works like it does but you know if you don’t understand it the way that people understand addition where it’s like oh i have two things and two other things that means i have four things now like that’s just how addition works but like calculus should be understood by all people not by all people but by you know people learning physics and stuff like that just like that like change over time is something that’s pretty simple and you you know we we get lost when we say when we just start memorizing like this is a chain rule this is u substitution this is the power rule and when you get into that like a little bit higher calculus than from high school and so you know people stop understanding the the what’s really behind the physics when they’re in the early physics classes definitely and a real problem is in the engineering classes the early physics classes for engineers are not taught by engineering professors and they’re not taught by the good physics professors they’re taught by the bottom of the barrel physics professors and i know this because like i’ve talked to a lot of physics people and i know this because all of my engineering friends say oh i hated physics one i hated physics too right because what what they do is they take you know those physics professors who really aren’t doing who well and who might have tenure or something like that who are only caring about oh yes i’m doing this really intense you know uh study on how quarks interact with blah blah and okay now i’ve got to go teach some stupid old mechanical engineers about how force equals mass times acceleration they don’t even know vectors how does someone come out of high school without knowing vectors i’ve never heard the term vector before i graduated high school right exactly and it’s like such a simple idea and then like no one teaches it well here’s a vector in like physics one and i’m like i don’t know what the [ __ ] that means right here’s a vector in my notes right exactly exactly and i mean what when do they even teach us vectors in like pre-algebra in high school i took that when i was a sophomore in high school and now i’m coming in as an engineer and i know like i’m pretty good at calculus i know it and i’m like hold up physics one like vectors what i don’t even understand then they’re like oh yeah there’s the x y and z directions and i kind of understand that right because i like i like i don’t know i’ve done some drawing or whatever and but like they don’t say and there’s these kind of relations that like kind of relate them but the rest of it is just like oh you just have equations in each direction right i had no concept of that because they they literally didn’t even cover vectors in physics one which is the basis of not only physics one and two and like all of my solids and dynamics and fluids and heat transfer classes it’s like this is the basis on which you build your understanding in three dimensions and it’s just not there it’s they just don’t even teach it to you so and then they were like here’s an iran i’m like but what does the comma mean right like there’s a comma and there’s

yeah it’s super interesting you mentioned so i just finished a book on uh academia and it’s actually it’s entitled uh good work if you can get it by jason brennan do you guys know jason brennan i have no idea uh he’s just like a libertarian philosopher he might take offensive calling than that but from the university of arizona teachers at georgetown now i read like one of his textbooks in college but it’s really interesting so he just does this giant deep dive like if you want to work in academia this is what you have to do essentially it’s all publishing so like you go into phd you need to publish like that’s all you need to do that’s all that matters other than passing and going to the highest best school you can but it’s interesting because at r1 research universities which we’re sitting at one right now unc duke nc state

essentially the highest status thing is being a researcher and it’s like low status to just be a lecturer so it’s actually a different like class of professor that teaches most the classes that make sense so lectures do not have voting rights what oh man it’s so so you know academia is quite um you know just and this is an empirical fact it’s it’s overwhelmingly um left-wing yeah it it’s it’s empirically true like you know it’s 25-1 in some fields it’s a size like 50 to 1 and like academic associate sociology and that’s like uh you know liberals to moderates i mean that’s not even like you know there are very few conservatives which is interesting because um the whole system is incredibly hierarchical i mean like oh my god like this is the most it’s not a democracy no it is nothing near a democracy the people that are lecturers they don’t even get to vote on anything i always heard that upper level academia was like the mob because it’s a bunch of people slaving away on the off chance they’ll win the lottery and get to be tenured like the low level drug dealers work so on the off chance they’ll get to be the big boss one day and make a bunch of money it is very simple and the the one thing that was interesting in the book i didn’t realize this is essentially if you don’t land a tenure track job out of the phd program almost immediately your chances of getting one essentially not zero so like if you went out and you’re like oh i’m just gonna be a lecturer or a postdoc well postdocs that’s kind of a different case but i’m going to be like an adjunct or something like that you’ll never get tenure essentially is that because they don’t want to take a chance on you or the phd students coming out or just that much more impressive because the field has advanced i think it’s both i think it’s incredibly competitive you know it’s subsidized so there’s like this glut there’s a glut of uh phd’s there’s not like a there’s there’s actually a lot of jobs but there’s a huge glut of production of academics now and it’s you know it’s good work if you can get it i mean that’s a really good title because you know a r1 research university professor that’s tenured is expected to work 200 hours a year the rest is up to them i heard that the biggest downfall of modern society is probably going to be only overproduction because it’s going to be elite over production because everybody wants a really great meaningful job and if they don’t get it they’re going to go out and write because it’s got to be somebody’s fault you have a degree in a phd from harvard and you can’t be a professor and you have to go and work it’s a barista starbucks you can’t study like medieval literature all the time like whose fault is that right so i know last year columbia so i was an english major finding out if i really stand out in this crowd so the english phds at columbia there were six of them they graduated and none of them got a tinder track job on columbia it was pretty interesting so you were talking about elite overproduction yeah so how did reading shakespeare help you in your life well you know i don’t know it’s like i read a lot of things but that were helpful it’s shakespeare shakespeare and i don’t i don’t mean to rag on english majors but like to be totally fair like will’s probably the most business successful person out of the three of us like for sure i know i’m only like a college student of course i know a japanese major and she never learned japanese so it could have been worse right so and i do find that uh people always get the wrong message i think i’ve told you guys this before the wrong message when i say this um they always always misconstrue this um so i’ll say you know like they’re all like what major were you and why would why did you do it and you know was it helpful and they say you know uh and i was like well you know as an english major and i find it was helpful because i think there is the i recognized early on there was this kind of elite overproduction phenomenon which we’ll talk about in a minute and i don’t really love that term but i think it does identify something real um so i i noticed there’s this phenomenon and there’s this idea that stem would save you like and this is still commonplace stem will save you and i had no illusions about that i had because there was no chance that the degree would provide any sense of like uh protection or in the job market security yeah economic security so it really forced me to confront that a lot earlier than essentially anyone else better than you’re graduating you’re now like oh no right exactly because i think that that happened to quite a few people i know it’s like oh my god here we are i’m like well you know i’ve been working on this for three and a half years like as hard as i can and that set me up well whereas um i think in you know i’ve been telling you guessed that for a while so i kind of came before you so you’re able to you know learn these lessons earlier um but i think and people always get the wrong message out of that like oh well you know the degree was probably actually helpful and i’m like no i don’t i don’t really think it was very helpful it was it was a consumption good i think it was quite good and i had a lot of time to um read a lot of things which i think is is really valuable like i was just going to the library and i just pulled books off the shelf and whatever subject i was interested in and it’s like you hear elon musk how do you learn about rockets he went and he read von braun’s book on rocketry right i mean like that’s the best way to learn things so you know i find that’s much easier than you know just some research professor who does not give a rat’s ass about teaching i mean using all the kids i know a bunch of second year third year um aerospace engineers and they don’t even know what delta v is it’s like oh i’m finally oh i’m so glad i’m in my aerospace class so i’ve been so like i’ve been waiting for so long to actually learn how to make a rocket right oh my god you’re in your third year and you haven’t even learned anything about rockets like i mean and then i look at it and i’m like wait i’m in my third fourth year of mechanical engineering i’ve you know what i’ve designed you know what i’ve engineered i’ve engineered a boat made of cardboard like yeah that’s it that’s it you know what it was it was a pretty good boat i gotta say i love my boat and it was with a team of really good people too but so i learned how to like kind of work as a team but like really like i’m here to learn about not like oh how to learn about engineering it’s like i want to know how to engineer and i shouldn’t have to wait until my fourth semester and i mean i’m high that’s right that’s right so finally in two separate engineering classes where like they’re called design of and that makes me like hopeful for the future right but i don’t know i mean it still seems like it still seems like hold up uh where’s all the engineering at right like where’s the actual engineering and that brings up a really good point um i i really like science and this is tied up with all the elite overproduction i i think science as a method is a very powerful thing um i believe you can find the truth with science which you can’t really do with anything else right you just find things so

but i do find there’s this there’s a meme in the culture that goes around right now um and it’s mostly from left left-wing people directed more right-wing people um and i won’t comment on any of that that’s the whole different thing we talk about but um and the idea is like you don’t trust science yeah and i think so i don’t trust science and what they’re really saying is not that i that that people that they don’t agree with don’t believe in this objective method it’s that people do not believe in technocratic experts um they don’t believe in the institution if that makes sense have you seen the replication crisis in psychology and as it like spreads and spreads and sort of metastasizes into like actual sciences you know exactly right now it’s in like biochemistry and i’m like oh jesus i’m like paging through the pages and pages of the studies that are getting recalled yeah and i’m like jesus like how are you ever going to know anything if you can just say whatever you want in scientific journals that are peer reviewed right so exactly so this huge distinction between science as a high status institution and the process itself anyone can do the process which i think is very important i want to everyone all our listeners understand anyone can do the process of science forming hypothesis and testing it if you’ve seen mythbusters you can do science you can do it yeah i don’t even have to watch that many episodes yeah but it’s like three episodes right if you don’t write it down you’re just screwing around just write that down right exactly but between the institution and i think our institutions are very sick and this is something i think we all believe in um our scientific institutions especially so one of the examples faith you just mentioned the replication crisis um which is fascinating i was going to mention your point what you just said that uh you know it started in psychology and social psychology and i think the reason we caught it there first was because because it’s really easy to test the replications test replicate and everyone understands it um what i do wonder about is uh you know quantum physics where there are probably 30 people in the world who can understand some of these problems they call it the um the theory of everything now because they’re super certain that it’s like very true but six years ago they were also going at the theory of it exactly exactly like oh there’s quirks and ends and you’re like i don’t know how much you really believe that but you sure do have 10 years right exactly and so we have to like cast a lot of skepticism because they’re very small groups you know it’s like and there’s no way to objectively evaluate it from where we’re sitting um so you have another cern right another sorry from building another 30 people here to understand how to use it yeah exactly um so i think that’s that’s super fascinating that uh you know so this replication crisis and what the replication crisis is i think we should probably define that just in case the reader hasn’t heard about it um so it started with power posing i don’t know if you guys remember this there’s famous ted talk oh i hate dead dogs so much man oh god don’t get me started on 10 dogs so and you know the the there was a famous harvard psychologist and she’s like look i found this great thing if you power pose you know you flex from the mirror before your interview you know you don’t remember like woman wonder woman for people who can’t see us right so you stand like wonder woman spread arms spread legs stand like a man show off those lats right so you uh you uh you do the power pose and then um you get some benefit like you’re more confident yeah you’re more confident in the interview right like yeah it’s a yeah you feel more self-confident yeah and so and then they perform better on like interviews that’s right and it turns out this is like completely does not replicate there’s no effect there’s no effect and this person made a bunch of money on the book and it was like it was very bad like so that andrew gellman came in and like oh look at they have these people p hacking we’re going all these statistical things what p hacking is uh so p hacking is you have a set of data and you have a bunch of hypothesis like oh maybe x correlates with a b c d or e and if it doesn’t correlate with four of them but it does correlate with one of them you can say look at that it correlates with f and you sort of hide the fact you’ve also tested for all of these other things but statistically if you test something enough times and you include enough variables some of those are going to correlate right so you have to pre-register your hypothesis and then say what you’re going to test for like before you do it you can’t go back and say oh this is like oh look i found this effect so so this is uh do you guys uh have you heard of this book you might have heard of this book glenn um it’s a famous book on relationships and i’m making blanking on the guy’s name right now very famous uh marriage counselor yeah uh what was this guy’s name uh oh man y’all keep talking my life can we go back to pee hacking while he’s looking for that because i i took statistics and i really believe in statistics and i know they think that if you like actually understand how they work it’s it’s easier to not be fooled but this p hacking thing i don’t really understand it and i know i kind of have a notion of what alpha values are right and i kind of have a notion of like what p values are but i don’t really so c could you reiterate on so if you have a bunch of hypothesis so like imagine you’re rolling a dice and you say okay if i stand on one foot and i roll the dice it makes it come up on twos more because magic is real so you try that and you’re like oh jesus this doesn’t work and so you try a bunch of different you start standing on the other foot you try waving your other hand around in the air you try like head banging while you do it and so statistically you’re going to end up with like more heads or like more rolling only twos on dice like just because yeah eventually you’re going to end up with twos every time in a row you say look at that when i stand on my head and karma sutra it always rolls on twos right but it that didn’t have any effect it was just chance that made that happen basically just because if you run something enough times standard variability normal variability yeah eventually it’s going to kind of matter just what distribution is that when it’s like normal distribution a normal distribution yeah if you have that then eventually one time it’s going to all end up on twos right that’s pretty interesting yeah and that’s that’s because you’re playing the metagame right you’re saying out of the statistics of the statistics yeah you can find anything you know right yep and find something that’s uh enticing enough to publish yeah and then you get six years later somebody comes says oh this doesn’t really replicate and you’re like oh maybe you weren’t chanting the karma sutra loud enough and like you can really just bury anything also and like you have tenure and the people replicating it are probably lecturers right they don’t vote and right they have the power to be fired yeah so how loudly are they gonna say this is actually [ __ ] and also with replication problems i mean you have to replicate and replicate and replicate and replicate right i have there’s a story of uh when i was back in life science when i came in as neuro my professor in my intro to life science class said you know oh he told us a story about there was this grad student and uh they were tasked with their first thing and they were supposed to read this and replicate this study and like they you know they were so optimistic they were they’re so happy because it looked like a pretty easy thing to do as a grad student and they did it and it didn’t come out right and they did it and it didn’t come out right and this happens for you know two years of their life and they’re like they’re like you know going crazy because it’s like how i must be a failure as a scientist right how easy should it be to replicate this simple study about two worms and then it turns out you know somebody comes in you know a tenured professor takes a look at it and is doing it and he put they put more resources towards it and i mean the best thing they could do when they because eventually it was oh what happened is someone falsified evidence right and so now i’ve wasted two years of my life as a grad student i can’t become i’m not on the path will was talking about i can’t become a tenured professor and only one for now

right yeah i’m gonna have to be a barista now right exactly now i have to teach this lowly lsc student life science student uh intro and how why it’s bad to falsify there and what what ended up happening was um you know they could prove that the data was falsified but the only thing you can really do in science is you can go in front of like this conference this national conference and you can say we were unable to replicate replicate this and that’s like a oh as a scientist you’re like oh that’s a big pow but as like a civilian you’re like oh you’re on our own you’re like i don’t know what that means maybe they didn’t even try they just slept who cares that they get this huge government grant for this giant scientist you know years earlier to go and learn about two worms and then they were just like lazy and falsified data right right and also they made a big discovery about that specific two-worm enzyme that they were talking about is it was a hemoglobin that could hold 200 times the oxygen and so they said oh we found that it had zinc on this place instead of copper or something like that and it was like a huge hemoglobin and so what they were doing is they said okay what we’re going to do is we’re going to make a company and it’s going to use these giant hemoglobins exactly combat medic aids where you don’t have to refrigerate like plasma and you can just like inject people with super oxygenated blood so that like you can get them to a hospital and they they went to file a patent and a patent had already been filed by the person who had falsified the data for with yeah and so it’s like so they have something that just wouldn’t work because they falsified the data and it’s like so bad science not only does it can it like ruin a grad student’s life right it can ruin the potential for innovation in the future like for really big things all of things that like like who would think that’s the third research exactly yeah so uh and probably the research profession was like oh i’ll just scroll down some numbers it’s two worms this is never gonna affect anything exactly right they wrote cu because they were lazy instead of like actually finding out that it was 10 or yeah so this is a that’s a great segue to kind of talk about um kind of our views on on so the science is the institution um i think we all three of us fundamentally agree that uh it’s broken oh yeah it it does not work and i think this is a quick segue on i did a biochemistry degree so i think that’s the most skilled job-oriented degree really currently that you can get if you just really need a job because you’re poor so they teach you all of these skills so you can just go and work in a lab somewhere and be like a wage slave but i got into this to my first job and the skills they taught us were like 60 years out of date really like they never go back and update them because there’s no profit in that like the professor’s gonna move on in two years that’s right they have to industry has to retrain every new graduate oh wow doing things which is a huge investment yeah yeah so the university system well we all know they’re behind and they’re not incentivized to student success on that side but on the other side um you know science went from wacky people with really weird ideas so isaac newton his two great interests were uh gravity physics and alchemy okay like no i’m serious like you can look up like that alchemy was real and gravity was not you know like it was you know like it’s also back then you don’t know right so um and i think what we’ve really lost is that now the people that um work in science are all politicians and they’re all salesmen because you’ve got to sell the papers and you’ve got to sell the grant givers and if you can do that you’ll be successful and you’ll have this great 200 hour a year job if you don’t you’re working at starbucks i think also as you sort of work really hard to open the field to like white men who aren’t rich and women and like people of color as you do that there are so many more qualified applicants trying to get into right and standardized you have to sell so much harder like if they’re five million dollar people who can just work in science for free then they can all do whatever they want but if there are five thousand applicants for this one job then they have to sell in politics and i don’t have a solution for that and i do think it is really important to have women and minorities in scientific positions but that is a issue you run into because everyone is equally qualified right so there’s a lot more smart people so uh and that that brings me back to just the fact that okay the grant process this is a big idea we have and this is a startup we’re actually working on the grant process is fundamentally broken and what it does it’s a time of materials contract that doesn’t pay you for outcomes so it incentivizes people to drag things out to do shoddy research you know do p hacking doesn’t matter right like my professor used to talk about how she would extend she would write grants for 10-year projects before she had like project ideas and then she would just apply that and be like oh this will totally take 10 years because it’s so hard to get new grants and she had to eat so right right and you know you look the productivity of science scientists today is about two percent of what it was in 1940. statistically how are you gonna like it’s very difficult there’s an economist make that repeatable that’s stunning yeah that’s very difficult right but i think anecdotally this is true because technology’s slowing down so much you know technology is the younger brother of science and if science uh our rate of discoveries has gone down a lot i think things have gotten a little bit harder but even that i mean we teach calculus to high school students now right so i mean we’re so far ahead in that sense where we didn’t even know that existed 400 years ago or how that worked um and so the idea we have here um is that you could pay for outcomes more directly so if you actually put out bounties for achievable this is really important um achievable near-term um and advancements in science and i think also approvable and provable like that’s very important that’s very important and that’s where you guys really come in um that would be incredible so you our idea is you take philanthropist money which you know that’s my special skill set on the business side startups been working on it for five years i’ve learned a lot i think there’s so much philanthropic money out there trying to reach being misspent yeah being miss meant but people are so desperate to help other people and like advance technology for the betterment of the human race and it’s so hard to find things that your money will actually help exactly so like you know coming up with these road maps that are very detailed and include like this is the next step this is achievable within a short period of time um we’ll put up the bounty because like most bounties today are huge it’s like okay make the mice live three times long well that’s not a billion dollars that’s not feasible without a billion dollars research money right and like and you need that up front because you got to buy the mice you got to buy the mice you know it’s really expensive right so the idea is that you know you two are especially talented and skilled in in in having the ability to ferret out these problems and find the right ones and i have a special talent in building out and finding um the money to go with it right and on top of that um we’ve got extremely high trust so you know like it’s this is a very high trust society it will ran off with all the money and be real awkward very often thanksgiving you know it’s not like we met these guys you know two months ago at some star conference like we’ve known each other for a very long time so that’s kind of one of my entire life well you’ve been leasing that bmw i thought you bought it all oh my god right so uh that’s uh he ran off and got married oh no that’s happening now she owns half of all your assets that’s crazy right it’s nuts it’s nuts um so we’ve been we’ve been thinking about that i want to get back to elite overproduction a little bit um faith have you heard about this glenn uh i have a general sense of it from from what faith was saying but i haven’t heard of it like traditionally it was like nobles in times of plenty would have a bunch of kids and they would all survive but like only one person can be the king so then you have a bunch of like second sons and third sons and they want to be rich and famous and all yeah right a bunch of kids and then these status like so even though our society gets bigger um status positions maybe don’t scale exactly okay so you might have an over inflation of the top end of a status streak right because you need like you need a pyramid shape and almost in a in a status hierarchy yeah and it’s like a matte fraser so you end up with a bunch of disenfranchised really smart people with a bunch of free time and a bunch of money and that destabilizes governments and can cause like wars because they’re bored and i think that it’s almost obvious that like having like like making them lower status isn’t really it’s not a viable option because they have like the connections and they have the education and they have the money you’re never gonna remove that status from because it’s sort of intrinsic like you can’t really take that away and people get really unhappy if you try to make them lower status super matters do not go for that at all even even worse than probably taking someone’s money away i think status is like you know the chimp brain like people freak out because imagine if all your friends decided statistically they had to hate you yep right well and also so you know part of this could be like um you know it’s the fun effect everyone’s getting smarter right you know over the decades right people are just getting smarter for whatever reason we took land out of the water rare exceptions yeah there’s also better better like psychological tools of like people kind of get like how to oh i kind of understand what alone is and then they teach that to their kid better better and like people are less abusive to their kids now so they end up with less weird psychiatric problems they’re less they’re less ill but also it’s interesting because you know the our institutions have not scaled with um population growth especially like college especially last incoming size harvard like unc chapel hill enrollment over time he’s good by the way i am i’m really cut anyway so i know harvard has not scaled at all i know harvard refused to use their money to double their incoming class size because they didn’t want to dilute the harvard brand and i really feel that really highlights it’s a positional good and not sort of what’s the opposite of a positional denial now a valuable good good that’s just a good good in itself it doesn’t matter so yeah yeah so i mean i think we should you know hashtag tax the endowments um of these uh these institutions so you know harvard like if you don’t you know if you really do have the best education in the world why don’t you share it with everyone yeah yeah exactly right that’s a real question why don’t you give a harvard degree to everyone who completes the online courses if you’re zooming the classes anyway yep because it’s just purely positional which creates these arm races that’s like um so uh funny enough glenn’s wearing a crossfit shirt right now so if you look if you look at uh crossfit uh games athletes is super fitness nerdy but over time it’s just this like incredible arms race right so it’s like it’s so incredibly competitive you know athletes 10 years ago like um you know there’s a guy i’m miley clayton with i follow him on twitter and we’ve chatted a couple times russ green but he completed the crossfit games and i’ll be honest you know that was in 2010 i guarantee you russ couldn’t compete right now he’s a very fit person right like uh and athletes just get shorter and more compact they’re all five foot nine and everybody’s taking care of the answer is that i mean probably

like a lot of steroids but you know like so and they have to train eight hours a day or nine hours a day you have to eat right and you have to take performance and drugs and that’s the price of the so like a little bit of competition like that and a purely positional game creates like you know the people get a lot fitter but like at the expense of what right like yeah a lot i don’t know but it’s very much the same thing with harvard right so you know like all these kids losing their mind uh you know like working 80 hours a week studying just to get that top one percent and even like one percent isn’t good enough right like i at this point it’s it’s really like i was the valedictorian i didn’t get into harvard like right you know like that’s not going to happen that was not going to happen they didn’t even send me like a rejection letter like you’ve taken my 60 for the application oh yeah and they’re like thank you for increasing our uh our decreasing our acceptance right right yeah and there’s also this interesting thing that you almost you kind of hit on there it’s like um if you are that one percent of whatever pool you’re selecting from so like our high school when we were growing up if you’re faith if you’re the valedictorian if you’re the one percent it’s like being the one percent being that super high ranking high status person uh doesn’t mean as much to you as the person who wants to be who’s like in the fifth percent who says oh i could be the one percent i’m really grinding for it i’m really grinding for it but like and so and then you you expand your your pool right the whole world now right our mom calls us getting ponded okay cause you’re a small fish in a big pond yeah yeah and so oh okay i’ll apply to harvard you know what i don’t really care that i was a valedictorian but i was so i had the status and so right you know let me try to get that more status and then they’re like oh you came from this super small pond well where the ocean and they smack you down and then you realize hold up uh it doesn’t matter that you’re the one percent on this specific hierarchy of right yeah so i think that brings up a great segue to another idea i’ve been thinking about um always trying to recognize what game you’re playing and what the rewards are if you win them um because you have to edge out right and who do you have to like like never play zero or something exactly exactly so i i have a friend um and she’s a younger person and i love i love talking i have friends that are a lot older than i am i have friends that are a lot younger than i am and i and carefully you’ll get canceled i know so people think people think this is like really weird like even average like well why are you going out it’s like 250. and i’m like well you know like i really like the perspective because it gives me an idea of what happens when you get there and where you were and it gives you some positional idea of like where you are in life um but you know she’s a much younger person she’s in college right now and um you know really uh worried about status and what she’s going to do and like call it like college and career and things like that you know and she does her parents have money or is she like out on the streets if she doesn’t get a job uh you know it’s important for her to get a job but she you know she wants to be a high status go into a high status field i won’t say which um and so let’s say it’s finance is i’m just making this up but so let’s say she wants to go into finance right um what i’ve been trying to imprint is this idea that look like okay let’s say you win this game and you work at the top investment bank and goldman sachs for 80 hours a week for six years exactly so you know like you you can make a lot of money that’s probably the best part about it you can make like a good amount of money um but you know and maybe find this is bad because i i want to focus more on a social good kind of thing um but you know the you would you you’re only going to be marginally better than the person that would be doing the job like if you don’t do the job it might be one percent worse but it’s so competitive that like it would be almost a wash like it’d be very difficult so kind of like with doctors if the next person who would have gotten your space in med school that was like that much less good as you you know was a doctor instead it might have been like a half of a percentage point on how good a doctor they’re going to end up being yeah and like if you’d all end up a wash yeah but if you can find things you can do that like oh god if you don’t do it does not happen i think that’s where you can find meaning and i think that that really eases people’s kind of status anxiety a lot because like i think people are built to sort of be good at one thing like if you’re in a village of 50 people and you’re like an okay wooden worker but you’re the best woodworker for 50 miles you’re gonna have a lot of status but if you live in a huge city and they’re you’re like there’s a hundred percent there’s 100 woodworkers you can work really hard to be a better woodworker and that’ll give you neurosis or you can be like an okay woodworker which is all we’ll also give you right right yep yep yep i think it’s interesting right and like yeah you know i see this on even in like my gym you know like i am like probably top quartile for strength maybe maybe higher than that for men um which feels pretty good but you know like jarvis children are about like neanderthals yeah pretty pretty stocky

whenever i go to competitions it’s like oh my god yeah nothing like nothing i did a competition together and we win right we walked in we were like yeah we’re pretty strong dudes for our crossfit okay we’re i’m not really good right whatever but and then we go in and just the roar of the massage guns going off they had the crossfit shoes strapped up tied ready to go right yeah they’re like they have like you know ankle pads wrist wraps it’s like oh okay so maybe we’re not going to really compete but you know just for fun right and this this is another idea i have if you truly want to com like i i don’t suggest people like try and compete often i think generally you should only compete like when you really want it and you really think it’s a valid thing to do specifically in crossfit you’re talking about right in the entire way you should in life don’t compete constantly because you’ll sort of well like you know you’ve got limited you should only ever compete or fight for something if you know like if you know you can win you should try to win very fast does that make sense like so like uh i don’t think like so you know you mean don’t go to law school and compete with your classmates on a career for four years right you know exactly exactly like you know maybe avoid that so i have a friend who’s like you know well like you’re really strong you should like try and like compete in olympic weightlifting and i’m like no i don’t want to do that because i only want to compete in that if i won’t if i’m going to be prepared to win do something and i’m not willing to trade that so like i’ll do it for fun like you know you don’t want to work eight hours work out eight hours exactly like i’m not interested in that like i i i only eat raw sweet potatoes exactly i only go to the gym for my health and to see friends right and it fulfills that and i win at ambition but if you want to compete i think you should generally um you should be prepared to win and you should be willing to sacrifice to get there and under trying to understand that before you jump in i think too many people jump in to these crazy status games um and they don’t really understand like well all i want is this like crappy trophy like why the heck would i spend that much time doing it it makes me think about the basketball league we played when we were younger right none of us were good at basketball no we’re not going to most christ-like every week because they couldn’t give me like most prizes they gave us these little stars that were like oh you were the best muffins and then they had another one for if you’re like not a very great basketball player it was the most christian yeah most christ jersey it’s like seven it was like gray stars it was amazing yeah yeah yeah oh man oh man but you will you will note that glenn then when we went to that competition when we decided to compete we put out more effort than was like there was no there’s nothing left on the table nothing no there was i guarantee i have no you know what i mean like whenever we go and do like whenever we actually decide to compete on something we’re gonna hit it hard we will kill ourselves carry them

yes i mean it’s just which is an interesting like i don’t know i i think people i i don’t like to compete i i tend to i want to avoid it but if we do if you ever do compete um i hate losing and if you ever met a good laser you met a loser right putting a good showing is what losers say yeah no i mean seriously and i don’t know i think that’s winners say to losers to make them compete hard to make themselves look better i think yeah yeah and it’s also like um sometimes losing and when you really try hard is like a signal to you to find a different access to compete on yes and if you put it all out there it’s like man that’s not enough maybe that’s something too you know yeah and also sometimes sometimes that’s not exactly true sometimes like you know you lose real hard and then you realize oh but there’s potential for me to be the best if i change xyz if i change this then like yeah and um but sometimes it’s like it tells you oh this game isn’t something that’s very fair so maybe it would be like bad for you to compete real hard and then still lose and then you’ve wasted all these resources so for context we play modern warfare

during quarantine and even now you know you can’t we can’t really get together to see each other or so you even go out and see friends right because you know coronavirus is still has community spread oh my god so shut down large universities which we might be sitting on an hour before you can’t get your tuition back exactly

um but so we started playing this this free game and it was perfect because uh you could play it across platforms and glenn has a computer i have an xbox fight there’s a playstation oh my god so so we can all get together and we can all uh all play together and uh been really fun right but it’s just it’s it’s interesting so you’re talking about that yeah so we started out and we were really bad at really the entire thing and it’s just for fun and like this is an example where it’s like i would get pumped by 13 year olds with sniper rifles from like 1600 feet away exactly so we keep playing when you get better and better and then we win and we’re like oh my god we won and then like and then what and then we’re like what what ha well like why do we spend all this why do we spend well you know and we got the value from because we actually you know came up with this idea of talking because we just ended up talking all the time right it’s just like this form to to talk in reality with this one other goal we all work toward together but it’s a little funny they realize what the point of it is completely we’ll be like we’ll be like in a helicopter with all our guns and stuff and we’re flying to the objective and then faith’s like talking about rim does rendezvous or whatever it’s called and you’re like what let me come on board with this jump out of the helicopter and slam onto the ground and that that does often yeah we end up getting shocked as we’re talking about something yeah this is pretty awesome you’re telling me they’re overproducing at least

the 13 year old who hears like the last 10 seconds of your audio after you kill them and like what the [ __ ] are they talking yeah like this makes no sense at all at all which is uh pretty interesting um so we talked a lot about competition we talked about uh elite overproduction um what are some other solutions to the problem of having um you know like general status anxiety in the air because i think that is incredibly high in people um well you could segment people into little groups right so i i think so if you have everyone only has 10 friends exactly and they all the same difference then one out of 10 people can be the coolest person in their friend group and like the smartest person so then you can’t be friends with anybody else though or you’ll find someone who’s like cooler than you are so that’s what i think we’re gonna end up doing is like you don’t talk to anyone outside of your real niche because facebook is doing that right now right like you only see liberal content if you’re a liberal and and conservative content if you’re but so you just segment society so everyone can

portland down so i think you know so social media has kind of expanded the sizes of our social groups but i think it also has the potential to solidify our smaller social groups so like um if your church has a facebook page and it’s like you know oh you got 50 people in your church then then that can kind of do what you’re saying is kind of like solidify your smaller social groups but there’s also the potential when you’re like oh i’m in you know this facebook group of you know 400 000 redditors or whatever yeah it’s like well i’m just one person in all of this and you get that yeah you you have no idea where you are on the social hierarchy anymore that that’s super interesting because it feels like the internet has had this like uh compression effect well so in one sense it’s amazing right because if you had some wacky thing you’re interested in like uh was a good example silkworm so your face the interest in silkworms right now we’ll talk about that in a minute um in your small town i guarantee there’s no one else who’s interested in silkworms nobody not one person no where is it there’s nobody else interested in this rocky mountain don’t

email me if you think it’s really cool exactly but uh so in one sense you can connect with those people but in the other sense people are incredibly lonely yeah have you like have you guys noticed this like and something i think our listeners that are in major cities the united states will not understand is just how lonely and bombed out a lot of the country is if you get outside of the metropolitan areas i live in greenville north carolina for reference and there’s nowhere to go to meet and hang out with people that’s not like in my house but i don’t want to invite strangers into my house so i don’t make new friends so much so i just have my old friends from college and some people don’t go to college so they have their old friends from high school or like middle school which really locks in a bunch of toxic dynamics because you know you can’t go anywhere else if someone is abusive or someone is just like not fun to hang out with and people don’t move anymore like statistically the people americans do not move different places like they either clearly locked into where they are which is weird right because like you know it’s the internet revolution yeah it should be all distributed connect to anyone in the world but but you just connect to the people also in greenville exactly you know and even the people that you know are supposed to be the best of this in san francisco in the tech sector they’re all there there’s more concentration there’s not less concentration yeah and you know they’d leave if they could because there’s so much poop on the streets yeah so yeah yeah san francisco california’s governance is uh it’s frankly gavin newsom if you’re listening it’s embarrassing please fix it laughing stock in north carolina it’s hilarious i mean you know roy cooper gets us power i don’t know like yeah he can clean the power lines off there aren’t used needles on my streets right exactly and you know there’s way more drug dealers in greenville so yeah i don’t i don’t know it’s just it’s fascinating how but even with that you know it’s still a massive concentration in the tech sector san francisco less so now i’m assuming because it’s so expensive and people are heading out and like somebody has to sell you coffee so if you pay them 7.25 an hour how are they supposed to be they can’t they can’t yeah you can’t live long no yeah it’s like it’s it’s uh you know and and san francisco is the future of america is so disturbing because just the not so inequality i was reading a book do you guys know freddie deboer is no idea uh four diamonds uh no no so he’s a blogger i really enjoy his writing uh super lefty guy um he’s very intellectually honest a lot of interesting things to say so he’s an english educator got a phd and he wrote a just finished a book i highly recommend called the cult of smart and so the thesis the cult of smart is that like we’re obsessed with academic achievement right now but if you gave everybody a college education today um the wage premium would disappear so the wage premium the college i maybe i should say again the wage premium would disappear for college educated people if we gave everybody a college degree right now it’d become like a high school degree but you’d have to spend four more years in high school exactly um and there’s a lot of people that don’t love academics um and that’s okay if you wanna yeah russell instead of learning calculus that’s fine or if you want to weld or if you want to work on cars or if you want to or raise your kids exactly exactly if you would rather do that than learn calculus that’s probably a more healthy choice than what we do or clean houses all day like that candy owned on twitter oh for reference they were talking about communes and one person chimed in and they were like an old college coins of mine and she was like yeah i’m i would just love to just clean a house all day and then just do whatever i wanted and i’m like why don’t you just be a house cleaner and not be dependent on a man or the four other people in your commune to feed you but tommy’s well you know and we could talk about communities more in some of the problems i mean if you’ve ever lived in a dorm room it’s like a dorm but with 40 year olds that never do any dishes yeah right absolutely it’s a commune absolutely um so the cult of smart idea essentially is that you know we have hollowed out like options so now you know we shift off you used to be able to go work at the factory and uh dogmatic free throws not off to the ugg hurts you don’t get paid sweeters there we go no yeah i mean seriously uh and that that has happened and all most of that i think happened at the hand of economists who are free trade doctrinaires um in the 80s and 90s who thought you know what like and i remember taking econ 101 i don’t know if you guys haven’t had to take econ because yeah i escaped it okay so i remember the classic example i remember sitting there and seeing this was like so they’re describing the gains from free trade it’s like well you know we get cheaper goods because there’s people with comparative advantage you know i don’t have to pay people or whatever because they’re in internment camps and in western china right um and uh just an example but there’s plenty others uh so pretty sure people occasionally boycotting their [ __ ] is less expensive than paying a living wage so exactly so you know like so they went with it um and the idea was that well these factory workers you know they might lose their jobs they can retrain and they’ll have these cheaper goods hashtag learn to code hashtag learn to code right you’re a journalist listening to this it’s out of work right exactly but you know this ignores the fact that um you know there are negative externalities to people that are less well-off you know the externalities are not happening to economists they’re not that that’s what i would say in fact they’re more diverse i like to call that stickiness within the model it’s like something’s like there are things which make this incorrect right right and it it so it’s like you might have a machine which kind of looks like what you think the reality is but there’s something sticky in it you’re not really going to run exactly like you’re saying right and this is a phenomenal i like to talk about called uh how big are the ed’s cases so how big and the edge case here is that like you destroy people’s lives and they’re all going to be uh you know using pain pills and things like that because they they don’t have a source of meaning where it used to be you could go and you could work and provide for your family it was like it was honorable and like work was respected workers yeah and i think that’s like a really i remember you remember the there’s an actor recently who was famous in the 90s but he’s working at trader joe’s now like falling on hard times and you know everybody was making fun of them on twitter like that’s way more beneficial to society to work at trader joe’s than to be an actor yeah like you know like to tan people peanuts is better for the economy than absolutely be a one person better actor than the next person in life exactly that job and i thought that’s just so embarrassing right you know like this guy’s out there you’re trying to provide for his family make the world a better place um and you know everybody’s just you know being terrible to him like i don’t find it embarrassing to work at trader joe’s like oh i don’t find embarrassing work anywhere you know what i mean like yeah like i mean if you’ve got a job someone finds value in what you’re doing exactly in a way that like i think people don’t realize like they literally someone has to pay for that yeah there’s a revealed preference right that it’s valuable someone wanted you to do that so much it made their life so much better they were willing to pay you money to do it which is pretty cool and you know they might not act like it there’s a million cairns in the world but even though even the worst karen is gonna still has to pay the money or or has chosen to pay the money for you to do that that service for you to give them that coffee like that’s right obviously she thinks you’re pretty great which is interesting um what else do we want to talk about i had something there well i have an example of um for the graduate students in the audience i guess um so the way we do it in my college is mechanical engineers have a final project which lasts an entire senior year and companies come in and give us contracts and yeah we waive our ip rights and stuff like that but anyway so you could be slave labor yeah so we show to them we show to actual companies that we have the design knowledge to actually produce something and so sometimes that goes good and sometimes that goes bad but um we so i was assigned to my group what or whatever and i was talking to the graduate student who is kind of over us who’s like teaching us and i said oh so you know i really want to kick this out of the park um you must have done this since you’re a mechanical engineering graduate student you’ve graduated mechanical engineering um what can you tell us about this real hardworking project where you know we get to really showcase our skills to be like oh we are productive and he said oh i got to do research instead of doing a design project so i’ve never actually designed anything

amazing and i mean it was like it was like there were crickets in the zoo like i don’t know who let them in i don’t know how they got computers but the crickets were there and so i mean that was just a firsthand experience of like okay so you’re becoming a graduate student to get a phd in something and you aren’t any further like okay you’re teaching a class and you’re doing research but i mean it’s obvious that the research isn’t going anywhere and it’s also obvious that like you trying to explain to us how we’re going to do this design project is silly it’s like i don’t you’re not you’re not really caught that that’s like have you ever heard of the insta institutionalization of instruments no is that carol quickly okay so this is bill clinton’s favorite book bill clinton looks like he’s gonna get castle now because one of these epstein girls was rubbing his back and i got pictures of it sorry um yeah it’s horrible like two years ago yeah i mean anyway so he was on the plane so it was like god you might want all the politicians on the planes you gotta like replace them with women because they won’t that’s fair but you know they as statistically a lot worse statistically um all women should be so president if them not raping other women is a priority for you that’s right that’s right which you know that’s uh that’s high on my priority list um so he wrote this book uh evolution of civilizations it’s quite good um bill clinton’s favorite book i’ve just finished reading it highly recommended he has this concept called institutionalization of instruments so have you ever thought about how we got college football no okay so do you want an interest in something that’s instrumental is vaguely so it’s like and i will get the philosophy

mental philosophy definition here we go um intrinsic value or this okay so it’s like uh means to an end if that makes sense okay so things are deemed to have instrumental value if they help one achieve a particular end yeah like music has an instrumental value for whatever we because we find closer to the air okay yeah so um originally cause pleasure through the year would be like an intrinsic value i guess yeah that’d be a true value um so college football began because uh essentially uh in the ivy league kids were getting fat they weren’t exercising um and so they’re like well we’ll come with this cool game and it was originally just running just just run the ball it’s very similar to rugby um and you know some people that was before the disposable black kids came in and then they added oh gosh jesus no it’s true it’s weird when you look at it sketchy it’s like a cartel design i don’t have tbis but you’re paying them with education yeah you know the tao proteins don’t care about the uh you know education you don’t get because they tutored it um pretty bad that’s the story for another day but um so the idea is like okay how do we get from that it’s like an exercise like thing like we use pe game to which is an intrinsic value right right to like 56 000 people in carter finley stadium

yeah yep so it’s like well what happens so you know you start playing the game and then you’re like well you know like man yale keeps running down our throats running it down our throats so you’re like you need you know let’s start we’ll spit maybe let’s get a couple ringers that’s what we did modern warfare we got

and so you start doing that and suddenly you know like well the running just running it’s kind of boring what if we threw it threw the ball so then they had passing right and then suddenly you know like then they like well we need a coach because yale’s still beating us like lapel and so it’s an arms race and then suddenly you’ve got 56 000 people screaming at each other in carter family stadium with the unc nc state game you make a couple billion a year and now you’re stuck it’s amazing this is the people in it then you have like hundreds of thousands of people in the parking lot right so yeah yeah so when you mentioned your graduate student who had never actually designed anything yeah not calling my out like it’s like wow like it’s just this institutional institutionalization of the act of designing something right yeah and also we have a design school did i tell you about that right we have design school engineering school and the idea that it’s like oh we’re gonna make the products and then oh we’re gonna make products that work right and it’s like all the design students and the engineers like do you even know math and all the physics students are like oh engineers you don’t know math you know no math which is very odd man when you think about it like how these weird things just they’re like emergent phenomenon right like that are somewhat random and how they come about right yeah you’re just like one day you’re like oh you know we should get fit on a fall day so you toss this leather ball out there and yeah start ramming speaking of emergent phenomenon glenn tell them about your club idea my club idea oh oh it’s just you guys it’s like it’s a sport to be a club sport it’s gonna be a real sport it’s gonna be amazing institutionalization of this instrument all right so the idea is i like i like strongman strongman’s a sport where it’s like oh you’re lifting but it’s kind of like oh weird awkward things and so we’re going to lift couches this year or whatever and now we’re going to actually try ours one time it was like a giant rock sphere right and so whenever i see that i’m like oh man if you only had like like one lever you could just do that and then i came up with the idea why don’t we have a standardized toolkit or something like that and then the only goal is who can get one thing from one place through another and you use you know whatever mechanical advantage you want because you still have to put in the power yourself right you can’t have like power tools and all that that’s no fun what you want is like you know oh are you going to spend the extra minute to set up this intricate pulley system or are you going to get will who’s 200 pounds heavier than everybody else to just pick the dang thing up and throw it or whatever so you start with like a 300 pound square and you have to move it 100 yards and you have a toolkit so it’s whoever can just get it to the other end of the field first wins right it’s like team one is hammering in their their pulley system and team two is have their lever system really going well and team three is just really throwing that thing hard and will’s just carrying it above his head he’s probably gonna snap his torso but it’s fun to watch it’s really cool so that was my idea for a little sport and i don’t know i think it’d be fun that’s awesome you know i’d watch it on youtube i really like it i really like the combination of like uh you know you’ve gotta you gotta be smart enough to you know there’s like this interplay of being smart and you also have to be fit enough to move it and like you know how that plays together is pretty interesting and in every sport you know somebody’s taller somebody’s shorter there’s mechanical advantages where it’s like there’s no true fairness and i kind of like the idea in some sports where it’s just like all right less rules can be more fun because it allows us ingenuity to come in and i think that’s the coolest aspect when somebody learned to dunk in basketball or to goaltend it’s like that can go positive or negative right because everybody loves talking but nobody loves goaltending and so instead of adding more rules you could find a a way to go about it where having less rules inspires more creativity but that’s really cool i don’t even have a name for it just an idea that’s a good idea i love that kind of competition well that’s our show for today i’m will jarvis and i’m will’s dad join us next week for more narratives

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